Recently named on the TIME100 NEXT list recognizing influential leaders in various fields, Alice Oseman is an author, illustrator, and screenwriter, best known as the creator of the internationally bestselling LGBTQ+ teenage romance comic series Heartstopper. Alice is also the creator and showrunner of the much-loved Netflix adaptation, has written every episode to date and been involved at every stage of production, from casting to music. Honoured as Attitude Person of the Year and The British Book Awards Illustrator of the Year in 2023, Alice is the author of the YA novels, Solitaire, Radio Silence, I Was Born For This, and the New York Times bestseller Loveless.
Having joined See-Saw Films in 2014, Patrick Walters is executive producer on a slate of current acclaimed television projects for the company including all three seasons of Heartstopper and the just launched Sweetpea, the first production from See-Saw’s in-house label, fanboy, which Walters runs. Previously, Walters executive produced The Essex Serpent, co-produced The End, and developed prestige television dramas including The North Water, Slow Horses, and State of the Union.
With the third season of the BAFTA-nominated, Emmy and GLAAD Award-winning Heartstopper now streaming globally on Netflix, Alice Oseman and Patrick Walters spoke with The Queer Review’s editor James Kleinmann in New York about their approach to bringing the graphic novels to the screen and the LGBTQ+ culture that has had impact on them.
James Kleinmann, The Queer Review: Alice, you’ve said that you started writing as a teenager because you hadn’t seen yourself reflected on screen or on the page, why is it important to each of you that you’re enabling young queer folks to see themselves through Heartstopper and particularly in such a joyful way?
Alice Oseman: “Seeing yourself reflected in a story is genuinely lifesaving for a lot of people. If you are a marginalized person in any way, it’s a light, a beacon of hope and reassurance that things are going to be okay. That’s what Heartstopper is all about.”
Patrick Walters: “I felt very seen when I first read the web comic and I met Nick and Charlie on the page for the first time. It really brought me back to when I was at school, even though it was a slightly different environment then. I fell in love with the characters and I identified with Charlie. That experience of how I felt was what I wanted people to take from the TV series, so it’s great to hear that that’s happened.”
It all started with the web comic, then the published graphic novels, and now we’ve had three amazing seasons of the show on Netflix. What does TV allow you to do, or open up for you as storytellers, that you can’t do on the page?
Alice: “The main thing is it’s such an expansion of the comics. The comics are very focused on Nick and Charlie and there’s not a lot of room for the supporting characters. But in the show, we’ve got so much space to let those characters have their own stories and really go on their own individual journeys as well as following Nick and Charlie’s.”
Patrick: “TV is what I do and we always try to stay incredibly true to what Alice put in the comics, but then we get the chance to expand it. It’s really taking in the whole ensemble cast of Heartstopper that feels like the main difference with the TV version.”
Could you talk about the thought that you put into the flow and structure of season three?
Alice: “The main thread of this season is Charlie’s mental health journey and we go into his darkest time and then we follow him as he comes out of that. Then things get a lot better for him and for Nick and Charlie’s relationship and they’re getting older and things are blossoming. But the theme of this season is Charlie’s mental health and there’s a circular moment where in episode one Charlie can’t take his shirt off at the beach and then at the end of episode eight he is finally able to take his shirt off in front of Nick and that’s closing that storyline in a way.”
Patrick: “It’s been the first season where we’ve had a really big time span. A little bit of time elapsed in season one, but season two was a very concentrated time period, and so it does give it a different rhythm. When you start episode four, for example, there’s been a big time jump which makes it feel different and it was exciting to do.”
When it comes to Charlie’s eating disorder and his struggles with mental health, I love how much time you spent on that storyline so that you could really dig into the light and shade of it. Could you talk a bit more about your approach to that, particularly striking the balance of going to some dark places while reassuring us as viewers that we were going to be okay as this story was unfolding?
Alice: “It’s a balance. In exploring those themes I wanted it to be realistic and authentic to that experience. But there’s also a danger of making it so dark that it’s just gratuitous misery which is harmful for people to see. On the other hand, if you skip over all the dark stuff then it’s not realistic at all. So you’ve of got to find that middle line in between those two things. In the writing it, it was about figuring out what to show and what not to show. Certain parts of the story we don’t ever see, we’re just told about, because seeing them would not be beneficial for anyone, particularly people who are dealing with those things themselves. So the challenge of it was finding that middle line.”
Patrick: “With episode four for example, the show really broke with form in terms of how Alice wrote the screenplay. It was kind of going, Okay, what in this run of Nick’s account of events, or Charlie’s account of events, do we really need to see in order to give it that potency and power? We see little flashes of stuff and a lot of deliberation went into that.”
Why was it also important for you to focus on Nick, particularly as we get towards the end of the season, and how being in the supporter role to Charlie has impacted his life?
Alice: “Heartstopper is Nick and Charlie’s story, they’re both equal main characters. Although it’s Charlie who is going through this ordeal, Nick is obviously very affected by it because he loves Charlie and wants to be doing anything he can to help and that has an effect on him. It causes him a lot of anxiety, for obvious reasons, and definitely towards the end of the season we see the dynamic beginning to shift a little bit between them. Charlie is starting to do a lot better and Nick is starting to realize now that he doesn’t have to spend so much time worrying about Charlie he doesn’t really know who he is outside of this relationship. That’s something that I’m definitely going to be exploring in the next Heartstopper book.”
What impressed you about the way your young cast handled some of the more challenging themes this season? They were great to begin with, but I feel like we’re really seeing them mature on screen as actors and getting more nuanced and bringing even more to their roles.
Patrick: “That’s so great to hear. We actually had lots of scenes this season because of the way the chronology unfolds. So there was a lot to do and I was really conscious that we were asking a lot of the young actors in terms of very big dramatic scenes that we had to shoot at a quiet pace. For example, in season three I think Kit [Connor] does what Alice just talked about beautifully, which is that he delivers that truthfulness to Nick’s situation of having these issues around people pleasing and that he always wants everyone to be okay. That probably goes back to his childhood and the bullying that was there with his brother and stuff with his parents. You get all of that history just in the amazing expressions that Kit’s able to do and it feels authentic and believable. I’m very proud of all of them.”
Alice: “I thank that they were really excited to delve into the more serious things this season. I definitely know Joe [Locke] was really enthused about this storyline for Charlie and he was really up for it. His favourite scenes are the ones where he gets to have a breakdown or gets to shout and scream and all the really big dramatic moments. I think the actors love getting to give it their all and get their teeth into something really gritty.”
The friendship between Isaac and Charlie is really heartwarming. Alice, how much of your own experience do you bring to the character of Isaac, particularly as we see his story unfold this season?
Alice: “A lot. Obviously, I’m aromantic and asexual, same as Isaac, so it was really important to me to introduce a character who was that because I’ve got this opportunity to do that and it’s an identity that’s very rarely represented on screen. Actually, it’s hardly ever been represented on screen, so just the existence of Isaac is helpful for a lot of people and very educational for people.”
“I love Isaac. It’s really nice to see him go on quite a complex journey of self-acceptance. It’s not like he’s figured out who he is and then that’s it, he’s fine. At the start of season three, he knows that this is who he is, but he’s still really struggling with how to come to terms with that in this world that has so much pressure around sex and romance. I love Isaac’s journey this season and it’s definitely very close to my heart.”
Patrick, is there a character that resonates with you or that you feel particularly connected to?
Patrick: “I’ve always felt very connected to Charlie and it’s been such a joyful journey to see Joe come into our lives and inhabit that role in such a brilliant way. He’s so truthful to the source material, but he also brings these little Joe-isms, I guess you’d say, where you see that he’s got such a surety of his own mind, he’s incredibly clever, and he knows exactly what he thinks about everything. That is in the character actually as well, but I think Joe really sharpens that energy in the TV version of Charlie. I love what Joe does with that.”
I love Elle’s storylines this season. It’s really powerful when we see her do the radio interview where she’s suddenly expected to be a spokesperson for every trans person. It’s such a great line when she says, “trans people aren’t a debate, we’re humans”, beautifully delivered by Yasmin Finney. What did you want to explore with that scene and its aftermath?
Alice: “My goal was that I really wanted to explore the culture of transphobia that exists, particularly in the UK, but also worldwide. In the UK, there are such extreme levels of transphobia in the media and in journalism and in politics, it is being used as a debate topic and it’s being used by politicians to get people to turn against each other. I’ve never seen that explored on TV and I think that’s a really topical and important thing to show in a story.”
“I had a lot of conversations with Yaz about that storyline and she was really enthusiastic about exploring Elle’s trans experience in a lot more detail this season. Until this season, I was very much in the mindset of Elle being a trans character who is not forced to go through so much misery and trauma because have been a lot of trans stories that are like that. But actually, it’s time that we show the reality of what life is like for a trans young person and the media and politics is such a big part of that.”
Patrick: “One of the really great things about that storyline this season is that you see the effect it has on Elle personally. After that experience, you feel the weight of it on her as a character and I think that is really finely done and the dynamics of the intimacy that she has in her relationship with Tao is also affected. It’s putting a human face on that culture war that is blighting us at the moment.”
One scene that made me immediately burst into tears this season was when Mr. Ajayi suggests that Charlie should run for head boy, then we see Mr. Farouk recalling what it was like to be an isolated young queer person without anyone to look up to. For me, it really encapsulates the way that people of my generation, and older even, have connected to Heartstopper and what they take from it.
Alice: “Yeah, it’s exactly as you’re saying. Mr. Farouk is one of the few adult characters in the show and in that moment where we see “baby Farouk”, as we call him, it’s like, oh yeah, of course he’s had this whole life of growing up as a queer teenager. He’s had his own Heartstopper journey, except it probably wasn’t as magical and wonderful as Nick and Charlie’s story has been. I think that’s something that many of the adults who watch Heartstopper can really relate to. The main reaction that we get from older viewers is, ‘I enjoyed it, but it made me feel sad about my own youth’.”
Patrick: “With Mr. Ajayi and Mr. Farouk in season two and the amazing journey that they go on in Paris where they get together, those scenes started off that sense of giving something back to that audience. It’s like, hey, it’s never too late. We have amazing actors in Fisayo Akinade and Nima Taleghani who really understand that and cherish those characters. So whenever they get a scene together it’s always dynamite and gives you the same feeling of sweetness and joyfulness as it does with the younger characters.”
I understand that Jonathan Bailey became involved partly because of what we’re talking about, being an older fan of the show. What was it like to have Jonathan on set and to make him part of the Heartstopper family this season?
Alice: “It was wonderful. He was only on set for one day, but he was such a beacon of light. I feel like he came on set and everyone was cheered up!”
Patrick: “He’s a very charming man.”
Alice: “He was very happy to be there. He genuinely wanted to be a part of Heartstopper and I think everyone really felt that from him.”
Patrick: We were filming his bits and then we were also filming some of the uni road trip. So all the girls who were in that scene, Rhea, Yaz and Corinna, were all waiting around going, ‘Is he here yet?’ Then he came in and was really lovely with them and took pictures.”
When it comes to tackling sex this season, I loved how the focus was on communication and talking about how whether people felt comfortable or not and whether they were ready. Why was that how you wanted to approach sex in the series?
Alice: “That’s what Heartstopper is all about. Heartstopper is about these teenagers who are so communicative and that’s why their relationship is so good because when they have these anxieties they talk through them with each other and they have such trust and respect for each other. Now that we’ve reached Nick and Charlie wanting to have sex that’s still the same in their relationship. They care about each other so much that they are able to have these conversations. Hopefully it will act as a guide for young people in having those conversations themselves and feeling empowered in their own relationships.”
Patrick: “I remember when you were writing that bit of the story in the graphic novel and there was a moment where you were like, ‘Okay, I want to do this and do it in the right way’. So by the time we got to adapting it for the screen, it felt like you were completely happy with how the story was being approached and it was actually quite simple in terms of the plotting of that storyline. It didn’t feel like, ‘How do we tackle this topic?’ Kit and Joe were really in tune with that and up for it.”
Music is such a crucial element of Heartstopper. Alice, I know you listen to music when you’re drawing and writing when it’s in its comic book form, then there’s the beautiful score by Adiescar Chase that brings a lot of emotion and queer joy to it, as well as the incredible soundtrack. Do you have each have a favourite song that was used this season?
Alice: “There are so many good ones in season three, it’s really hard to choose. I think my personal favourite is “Wish on an Eyelash” by Mallrat which happens just as Nick and Charlie reunite for the first time while Charlie is in the eating disorder clinic. It’s a really short song, but it just hits me in the heart somehow.”
Patrick: “I remember seeing that for the first time, it’s so beautiful. For me, it’s probably “Blue” by Billie Eilish in episode four. We put that song into the edit quite late in the day and so when we were in the sound mix it was the first time I was hearing it and I was like, ‘Oh, my God!’ It’s this really emotional moment where Nick is looking into the video camera that Tao’s holding and then you cut back to Charlie in his bedroom and he’s holding the camera. So it’s an amazing stylistic break for us that works really well and that song is amazing.”
The production design and the set dressing is so detailed. I love the Brideshead Revisited poster in Charlie’s bedroom. Do you each have something that’s on set that maybe we wouldn’t pick up on in a first viewing, but that gives you a bit of a thrill to know that it’s there?
Alice: “Nick and Charlie’s bedrooms are so detailed, there are so many details to uncover. In Charlie’s room, there’s a little drawing of a male ballet dancer by his desk. I don’t know if we ever see it on screen, but it’s tiny things like that which the art department have thought to create.”
Patrick: “Sometimes it’s about getting clearances for things that you’re really passionate about just so you know that they’re in the bedroom. We got the In the Mood for Love poster in Tao’s bedroom and although you don’t often see it, occasionally you can see it by his desk. It’s brilliant because he would obviously love that film, but it also says something about his storyline a lot of the time when it’s on screen.”
Having spent so much time living with these young characters, the cast, and engaging with young fans, has that expanded or changed your own views on gender identity and sexuality in any way?
Alice: “I’ve learned a lot. I feel like I’m always learning about new forms of queerness and it is infinite. There are infinite ways to be queer. Through the show I meet so many teenagers, and through my books as well, and it’s wonderful to see so many young people who are so empowered and feel that they can express themselves so clearly, because that definitely wasn’t the case when I was that age.”
Patrick: “It’s a really interesting question. I think the show comes at a time when the rites of passage for young queer people are changing. Getting to know the cast so well, evolving the story with them and their roles, there’s a sense that there is not one right way to do it. You don’t have to come out and you don’t have to label anything. I think we’re getting to that point where those things are really important to remember.”
Last question for you both, what’s your favourite piece of LGBTQ+ culture, or a person who identifies as LGBTQ+; someone or something that’s had an impact on you and resonated with you?
Alice: “I saw a movie this year called I Saw the TV Glow. It was a spiritual experience watching that film. It’s about being trans, but not really understanding that you’re trans. The word trans is never used in the film, but that’s kind of what the film is about. I went to the premiere of it, which was full of queer and trans people, and I feel like we all had a communal crying session. It’s one of the most beautiful queer movies I’ve ever seen.”
Patrick: “The novel, The Line of Beauty by Alan Hollinghurst always jumps into my mind because I read that when I was quite young. Although it’s very different to Heartstopper or anything we’re doing, it has a queer coming of age story that’s done in the most beautiful and moving way. That’s the book I always recommend to people.”
By James Kleinmann
Seasons 1 to 3 of Heartstopper are now streaming globally on Netflix. Follow Alice Oseman on Instagram @AliceOseman and follow Patrick Walters @PatWalters__.
